If you haven't already, listen to "This Developer's Life." When it came out last year it quickly jumped to the top of my favorite podcasts list along with "Herding Code" and "Science Friday." Rob Conery started it, and now he and Scott Hanselman sit and weave stories shared by other developers in a riveting way accompanied by music and brief glimpses into their own lives. The real value of the series is the production and the way it captures your imagination and emotion as you journey into the lives of other developers.
Rob and I are Skype pals, and a little while after the show started he came to me with a proposition. He had been having trouble finding ladies to be on the show. Being that I am a woman (I don't know if you knew that, I try not to advertise it), he thought I would have better luck finding some who would share their stories. He and Scott both feel powerfully that bringing out female rolemodels in this industry is one of the first steps toward closing the gender gap in software development.
I jumped at the chance to work with these awesome guys and be part of something that I admire. Rob and Scott bought me a whole setup (seen above) to interview folks with and mailed it to New York. It took me forever to figure out how to set it up, but as you can tell we now have a great podcasting room at New Work City (where I work), someone even soundproofed the walls.
I know a lot of kickass women programmers here in New York, so I sent out some emails right away. I sent out 13 emails. I emailed women I have great respect for, most of them have been in this field much longer than I (or are way more qualified), and work in positions that come with much respect. They have built amazing things, and work with incredible people. These, every one of them, are stories that need to be heard. If you lined them up next to the men that have been on "This Developer's Life" thus far they would be exactly on par.
From all but one of the emails I got the exact same reply: "I'm sorry, I just don't feel like I'm at the point in my career that I'm ready to talk about it publicly yet."
The one person that I got a "yes" from is Danielle Banks, she is a great student that is teaching herself how to be a developer. She's in the process of learning, and she was brave enough to come forward and share her experience with others. She was also the only one on the list that didn't have an established career in development (but will someday, believe me. You can hear her story here.)
I don't really understand what is happening here. Possibly, it's something that someone can explain. This is an extremely popular podcast and people all over the world are listening to it. Girls all over the world are listening to it. They are learning that there truely are no women in software, the statistics are right, they will have to break this ground alone if it is something they want to pursue.
It may be that these particular ladies don't like me that much, or they don't want to be around me for more than an hour, or there is some other reason they don't want to do this. It can be really scary sharing a story that you know people are judging you on, especially in this field where we're all competing to inject the most "Well actually...."s. However, I know there is a woman (are women) in the tri-state NYC metro area that want to sit and talk to me about this great industry and their experiences. I will buy you dinner, I will make you coffee, and I promise I will make you laugh at least once.
If this is you, or you know this woman please email me (contact link above). I would really appreciate you joining me in bringing some XX chromosomes to the airwaves.
Also, suggestions on how to go abou this in a better way would be welcomed. It's possible I'm using the wrong approach by cold emailing, and I would like to be better at this.
I haven't listened to the podcast yet (I will!) but I think your own post answered your dilemma. Look at the third last paragraph. That doubt is why we women let men step up and into the limelight. We all feel it, and we all express it in some way.
ReplyDeleteDon't get me wrong - I love men and I love women. But we are very different in our approaches to things, including the new and unknown.
Women get a bum rap. We feel we have to achieve more in order to feel on par with guys. We aren't as outspoken about our achievements either.
I think you should try the same women again, but I also think you might try a different pool. Maybe some more up-and-comers. If you don't know any, ask the first set of women - that might also get them to reconsider your offer ;)
I hope you find more women for your show. I like hearing stories from the trenches - successes, failures, heartaches, laughs. It reminds me that I'm not alone in my journey to being a better dev.
Good luck!
Hey Sara. I'm not a girl, but I have been accused of being effeminate. Consider me as a backup if nothing else plans out.
ReplyDeleteHi Sara,
ReplyDeleteMy partner works in the tech field, so I asked him to ask around within his network for this wonderful opportunity. I'm only in HTML/CSS101, but I personally would love to do something like this later when I have more experience and real software development skills.
Keep up the good work!
Jamie @JumpThru
Actually most men I know in the industry have these same fears, the difference is that given such a wieghted pool, you can still find guys to do this type of stuff. That said, I know a couple of women I might be able to cajole, hopefully one will step up.
ReplyDeleteHi Sara,
ReplyDeleteWas pointed to your post by @krotondo. I'm a quick train ride up the Hudson, and would love to join you on the show. I hadn't heard of the podcast, but now have it on my short list to catch up on... the quick snippets I listened to sound very well done.
The topic of women in tech has really been 'up' lately (seems to get attention in cycles, but the story never really changes too much). The impression that I get, which seems to be supported by the responses you received, is that women who make it into this field tend to feel the need to 'keep their heads down' and not draw too much attention, thinking it will open them up for criticism or ridicule. Now, of course, that is a generalization, and everyone male or female has their reasons for choosing to stay working privately or to seek a higher profile. Some people just fear public speaking in general. But the ratio you experienced must be pointing to something deeper. I don't claim to know the answers, but certainly would like to be part of the conversation.
best,
// Lisa Larson-Kelley
http://LearnFromLisa.com
Women don't get a bum rap -- they do it to themselves! Women look around and think that if men get things, it's because they're men, when it's really because the men are brave enough to ask for it -- even demand it.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's at all because men have been "socialized" to ask and women have been "socialized" to be meek and wait. Having spent oodles of time armchair psychoanalyzing people I meet (and lots of time reading about cog and social psych), I've come to this conclusion:
Lots of guys are kinda oblivious to the nth-degree social ramifications of their actions. They just don't think about it. So, of the guys in that subset who want stuff, they ask, or they don't look a gift horse in the mouth. It wouldn't occur to them. "GEE, WHAT IF PEOPLE THINK I'M UPPITY?"
The guys who DON'T ask for stuff (and who are definitely wary of th quality of a gift horse's chompers) are also the ones who obsess about the potential ramifications of the littlest actions. Ever notice that?
Women are more socially and emotionally aware of others, on average -- that's been proven by a stack of studies so high that it might as well be infinite. And so women think about the nth-degree ramifications of certain actions. And women are under the silly notion that people who get stuff, get stuff handed to them. And yet, then they are afraid of gift horses.
None of this was "done" to men or women, it's just a natural outgrowth of whether you're born to notice social dynamics or not. (Although anyone can LEARN, few people try.)
It's not "the industry," it's women. If you don't believe me, read "Women Don't Ask," and your eyes will literally pop out of your head.
So, if I were you, I'd guilt them into doing it. Yup. A little loving arm-twisting never hurt anyone. "Now now, lady coder, this isn't actually about YOU, it's about inspiring girls who want to BE you."
If women are suspicious and skittish when you say "I want to interview you because I think you're awesome!", then you just have to find another tactic.
And ladies: get over yourself. It's downright silly to be scared of a podcast, especially run by someone who respects you. Do you run away from everything that scares you? No, because that's how you grow. And you know it. Woman up.
I think you're finding women reticent to step into the limelight for the same reasons my first instinct was to look for your email address rather than comment publicly here: speaking broadly (no pun intended) we tend to downplay our own accomplishments -- I know I do -- and not want to put ourselves out for public (let alone enthusiastic male) review. I've been in software engineering since the 80s and I've stumbled into public a few times, always with great hesitation, fear that whatever I was it wouldn't stand up to scrutiny, and the realization that I had to step up so that other women would feel more comfortable doing the same.
ReplyDeleteAnd yet, here we are, 2011, and women are still clinging to the shadows, certain our engineering accomplishments aren't up to par. I think it's cultural, I think it's fear-based, and I'm glad you're pushing on it. Keep pushing and it'll change. We're changing it right now.
I'm a girl developer as well, but unfortunately I don't live anywhere near New York, but an ocean across. Otherwise I'd be the first to jump at the chance to talk about my work.
ReplyDeleteI agree that it's sometimes hard standing up to your guy co-workers and it can be intimating at times, but frankly, I don't care. I know that I bring some skills to the table that a lot of the guys at work don't. Not sure if it's because I'm a girl or because I'm me and have other interests apart from programming that I try to bring to my day-to-day work. I have a blog where I try to write about the things at work I think might be interesting for others.
So, if you or someone you know ever want to have a girl developer from Germany on a show, I'm in. It has to be using Skype or something, since I can't just fly over (although I'd love to, especially to New York), but I'd be totally game for that.
I'm excited to listen to this podcast, which I had not heard of until a friend of mine sent me a link to this post and suggested I try to submit myself for an interview. Unfortunately, I live in California! Good luck finding techy women to make this endeavor a success!
ReplyDeleteWILL BE NICE TO SEE THE REACTION WHEN A FOUL BALL CRACKS THE AQUARIUM GLASS....
ReplyDeletelink to podcast broken. should be http://thisdeveloperslife.com/post/1-1-3-competition (remove last blackslash to make link work)
ReplyDelete